The Formula for Accelerating Partner Performance: A Podcast Interview with Kinavic CEO Angela Navarro

Brent:
So performance in the context of—we’ll get into this a little bit, right—but I think a lot of our listeners understand that dimension of the Managing Director. Someone who has worked their way up that career ascendancy within a global consulting firm, or an ascendant firm—we’re going to talk about the size of that a little bit.

But really, when you achieve that level—and we’ve both been in that seat—you’re there to perform. You’re there to bring in revenue to the firm, maintain revenue that you’ve won, cultivate, widen, broaden relationships—and talent along the way. So it sounds like that IP and that assessment that you’ve cultivated is razor-focused on those individuals, because let’s face it—as a firm grows over time, they want to add these types of folks.

They’re expensive, right? So they have to have a return on that. So that’s really fascinating. So when you came up with the IP and then the journey to kind of form this very specialized consultancy—Kinavic—how long have you been, you know, doing this in that kind of dimension?

Angela:
So the journey started about six years ago. Took a while to develop the IP with Hogan, and then to develop our methodology of: how do you really support the acceleration of the Partner track?

So we’ve been, as you know, a standalone company for right at four years. But the IP development took a little longer than that.

Brent:
Gotcha. Sounds great. So, Angela, we’ve had other guests and content partners that focus on helping consultancies optimize and be better. And I think of, like, Kennedy Intelligence and Tom Rodenhauser and those guys. And they had this notion around “Consultants, heal thyself,” right? Like, you’re going out and you’re helping other firms perform, optimize, transform—whatever the case might be.

But internally, you would think, you know, leaders are great leaders. They’re equipped to help others lead. Or performers are performing at the peak of their performance. And your firm and your focus is really around that latter. You’re not necessarily a more horizontal kind of leadership development acumen. You’re really focused on performance.

Maybe you could explain that difference to our listeners.

Angela:
Sure, sure. So we say “performance acceleration” versus traditional leadership development because what we know about adults is that they learn best—and most quickly—by doing. And traditional programs are really important. I would say our clients have some of the most impressive learning organizations on the globe. It’s just not what we do.

So we don’t send folks to class or run simulations. We’re helping Partners and firms—or Partner teams—understand how to increase performance and create experiential, sort of fast-acting, actionable opportunities to learn while doing. Right?

So if you put that into action, we’re using data—our IP and Verity—and we’re able to quickly see: how does this Partner or group of Partners line up to what you’re asking them to do? And then, how will they do it more successfully?

I think it’s important to just state that all of the clients we work with are going through some sort of transformation, right? They’re all doing something differently—or trying to—and it’s constant. And what we’re asking these Partners to do is perform and transform at the same time—sort of convergence.

And to do that, you want to make sure that you’re understanding the wiring of the individuals so that you can outline how to help them be more successful more quickly.

Brent:
So Angela, in our business—in the podcast and our listenership—we’re talking many times to ascendant firms: several hundred consultants up to several thousand. Some having come from global consulting, but really around that notion of growth, operations, and beginning that journey. Some to just continue to grow, some to position for an acquisition—whatever the case might be.

So in your business, doing this evaluation, at what stage firm are you typically working with to help optimize their Managing Director talent—their leadership talent?

Angela:
So really growth-focused, as you mentioned earlier, right? Professional services—those may be backed, right? Could be public. But everything from mid-sized, mid-market, and then we’re working with global Tier 1 and Tier 2 firms.

I would say, though, that the intersection is when growth needs to be sustainable and foundational. And you know that you’ll have to do the hiring or transitioning of important Partner resources in order to meet that growth.

Brent:
Absolutely. And do they—I think we all sort of have a nominal understanding of that institutionalized growth. And I’ll put out a statement. I think, like, when I was at a global consulting firm and was at that specific level, you know, my revenue target was in the—we’ll say, more than $10 million, right? That was my expectation.

And it varies, right? From firm to firm. And sometimes you’ll be on a ladder and so forth. But there was a real expectation of performance. And then from that expectation, the firm is then able to build out their plans for growth. Because if these MDs perform, or at least are close—in the vicinity of those targets—of course the firm grows. And then it compounds over time.

So in your experience, what are some of those biggest challenges? Aside from, you know, you coming in and optimizing—do you find sometimes they overshoot? Or they think that maybe they add too many MDs? Maybe the wrong type? That the fit isn’t there? Like, when they’re starting in this journey, what are the things that jump out to you initially?

Angela:
You know, in the people business—and you mentioned it, right—you can buy or build.

Brent:
Mm-hmm.

Angela:
And if you’re buying the resources that you need to scale growth, you’re hiring from outside. That could be traditional, nontraditional—which we could get into, right? Hiring out of industry or hiring, you know, seasoned consulting leaders. Or they’re acquiring firms, right? With specialty capabilities, technology. Or building from within.

And they’re really the two levers that you have. You know, they can promote internally. They can get more out of the Partners they have. But I will say, the most successful clients we see—it’s a “yes, and.” You’re doing both.

Because if you’re hiring—we can talk about those stats—but they’re not great today on the success of direct admit Partners.

Brent:
And what do you mean by that? Maybe expand on that a little bit.

Angela:
Yeah. So, I mean, if you think about direct admits today—about a third fail in the first two years in role. And 50% fail to launch. So let’s say they stay, but they’re not hitting their target, right?

And what we see is: one in ten direct admit hires are exceeding targets as expected, in the time expected. So, you know, hiring is not the only way you’re going to get that growth with those statistics.

Brent:
It’s sort of that—and I bet many of us, myself included, and I bet a lot of our listeners have been through this—you’ve helped the firm reach a certain stage of growth. The firm is growing, and it’s time to mature, and it’s time to reach that next tranche of growth. You know, “We’re at $100 million in revenue, we want to get to $120 million. And gosh, we just need—we need some of those folks that have, you know, cut their teeth at McKinsey or Accenture, Deloitte. You know—stern face, serious nature, whip-smart, TUMI luggage, living on the plane…”

And they can bring in $20, $30, $50 million, $100 million a year. They’ve got the Rolodex.

Angela:
[Laughs]

Brent:
And then what you’re saying is—yes, the compensation package has to be really compelling for them to leave. Some are wired for helping firms grow—or everyone, I find, says they are. The reality is a little different. I might want to touch on that.

But they come with much fanfare. Everyone’s excited. They’re going to tell this new ascendant firm how things are going to be. And what you’re saying—it’s something like one in three of those hires are failing?

Angela:
Yes. Yes, that’s what we see today. And I’ll also tell you, if you’re hiring nontraditional hires—so, you’re hiring out of industry, which many firms are doing—those stats are more alarming.

So, you used a word that I want to pull on—

Brent:
Hopefully not a bad word.

Angela:
[Laughs] It’s not at all.

Brent:
Right—because I was just at SKO and we were all… oh, the libations were flowing. But anyway—go ahead.

Angela:
[Laughs] So—“wiring,” right? Because if you think about it, firms are hiring—and I’m going to call them rainmakers, right? They’re seasoned. They’ve been there, done that. And they’re coming into firms to help scale.

But the same job at a new firm is not the same job. I think we need to just be real about that. Because the wiring may be—culture changes, right? Expectations change. You’re in a bit of a time of stress. So it’s not always your best foot forward.

So what we’re seeing are those stats, and the reasons those are happening is because of the structures in the firms that are hiring them. Right? It’s the preparedness to take in that kind of talent and help them hit the ground running. And they may be wired to do something in their past that doesn’t translate today in the new role.

And it happens more often than not.

Brent:
So, you know, just ships passing in the night—just trains moving in opposite directions with the best of intentions.

So let’s go back. Maybe you—the firm that is doing the hiring—and I know you work with global firms, so you’re working to optimize that prototypical Partner, that prototypical MD in one of the big four or five, and then kind of the tier below that.

But talk to us a little bit about that ascending firm. Where do you find that they’ve come to this realization or this desire that they want to bring on a new MD, bring on—use the term I was not familiar with—admission hire?

Angela:
Nontraditional.

Brent:
Nontraditional. Gotcha.

Angela:
Yep, yep. So out of industry, right? Didn’t grow up in consulting.

Brent:
Oh, okay. Okay, now that makes sense to me. I wasn’t sure if you were just meaning kind of out of the firm—not hired from within. That makes sense. But what is it—size? Is it momentum? Is it “Gosh, we’ve flatlined”? You know, we really need someone to come in with that heavy Rolodex and bring us growth.

What are the triggers you see that bring them? And then we’ll go to the person, why they might want to make that switch.

Angela:
You know, firms are hiring for the exact reasons that you said, right? They’ve come to a place where they’re either needing to add a different capability, they’re adding goals, they’re leaning into client service, they want to serve more clients and grow the firm.

And they’re hiring really seasoned MDs that have done this. And, you know, what I hear a lot is, “Well, they’ve done this before. Let’s do that. They’re a no-brainer, right? They’ve been so successful elsewhere, they’re just going to be successful here.”

And what we find is—it’s just not that simple. Right? It’s just not that simple.

It really does require the acquiring firm to be really consistent—tell the story at the beginning of the process, right? When you’re doing the dance to recruit someone—and be consistent all the way through to: what are you holding them accountable to do?

A lot’s changed about the Partner track.

Brent:
Yeah, we’re going to get into this, yeah.

Angela:
Yeah. So I think it’s just not always the same thing. And we do find—and we work with firms, just to be clear, of all sizes, right? I would actually say the smaller, midsize, mid-market firms probably can benefit from us faster.

Brent:
Well, and, you know, the implications for failure are much more profound for them, right? Because bringing on an MD salary is a big—that’s a big—that’s a heavy load. And they’ve kind of got to make it work, you know?

Angela:
Accenture is so…

Brent:
Yeah, right. Exactly. Exactly. They’ve got to be better than hitting on one out of three.

So that’s really interesting. So from the talent side then, we’ve made it, you know—and, you know, it’s 2025. So let’s say this is an MD that, you know, rode the school bus to the firm as an analyst, battled their way up the ranks, made that MD class four or five, six, ten years ago—is now ready for something new.

They decide to join a firm to do X—growth, be that change agent, and so forth—and then they fail. So what are the things that sort of motivate them to make that jump? And then where do you see their expectations kind of fall flat?

Angela:
Well, in some cases, we see these MDs join because they can be a bigger fish in a smaller pond. Right?

You know, I’ve personally done that, right? I get that. They have a lot to offer, people are listening. Maybe they’re going to like-size firm from one like-size firm to the other.

But what I think is important to note is—for the individual—that same saying… I mean, I hate to say it again, but, you know, you’ve been successful to date. You’re going to a new firm.

You have to really make sure that you’re willing to sort of step outside of yourself and say, “Hey, I’m going to have to do something different because I’m in a new culture, I’m in a new environment. I have new individual performance targets that may be different from what I’ve had in the past.”

Right? I may have a different support system. And you’re likely not to have the apprenticeship that you’ve been accustomed to if you’ve grown up in the ranks.

Brent:
Gotcha. You know, that makes sense. And listen, we’re speaking from a perspective of decades of success in building this model. Like, the big firms got this right. And they found the right kind of person—motivated, ruthless meritocracy, willing to work murderous hours. I’m looking at you, and I know we’ve shared this.

Just insane. Just when you look back—like, why did we do this? For months on end. It’s bonkers.

But it’s an adrenaline business. Always on the go. It’s a lifestyle decision, right? You’re not going to see your family Sunday through Thursday and those types of things. But that makes a lot of sense, and that’s a—that’s a radical shift.

Brent:
So along those lines—how is the model changing? What are those, you know… Is this newer generation willing to do that traditional go-through-the-gauntlet 10 to 15 years, maybe make MD? And is it still looked at as an attractive type of career path? Or is that really shifting as well?

Angela:
Yeah, the Partner track is changing. I mean—I still love it. I’m still in it, right? So, you know, maybe it’s still in some of us. But I would say there’s more lateral hiring, right? That’s one key trend.

And so what that means for folks that are coming up—we have clients today where they’re hiring in MDs, SMEs over early Partners, right? More than they’re promoting.

So you’ve got to know that.

There’s more emphasis today on individual performance than there used to be. There used to be, I think, in the days we’re talking about—you know, double, triple counting, where, you know, being part of something… those models have changed a little.

And certainly for new direct admits, the focus is on individual performance.

There’s less apprenticeship. Some folks say that’s a good thing, some folks say it isn’t—but that’s true.

And then I would say due to the shift in ownership and leadership models, there’s a shorter runway to hit your targets.

I think what’s interesting, though, is what isn’t changing.

Brent:
[Pause]

Angela:
So I don’t really see that firms are changing fast enough to support mid- and later-career Partners. Right?

So you’d expect that these firms would learn from trends in the Partner turnover—and the stats I just shared, right? Hiring is just not enough. And you said it—bigger firms are going to hire bigger classes than smaller firms are.

So it’s absolutely possible to make shifts that result in a higher ROI and higher engagement. And it’s quite literally what we all do in consulting and professional services for our clients.

So, you know, I think what isn’t changing fast enough is a focus on setting up Partners from the outside that are coming in—or developing next-gen Partners from the inside—to increase performance.

I mean, I’ll give you a quick stat.

Brent:
Love it.

Angela:
Average spend on Partner development—which I’m going to say development (and I know those listening won’t see my air quotes)—development’s a big bucket. But it’s between 1.2% and 3% of compensation.

So if you do that math—it’s not very much.

Brent:
No, that’s—

Angela:
It’s very—it’s minute. And I would say it’s the first item that gets cut from costs when you tighten the belt.

Brent:
No—of course.

Angela:
So what’s left, right? I would actually say many of our clients have the most well-established learning and development programs on the planet, right? I think they do that really well.

That’s not actually what we do.

But we just sort of get that we pay these folks a lot of money—they should know what to do. But if you think about the one in ten—do they?

Right? So what they should be doing is—and what we see our clients doing—is they’re using success traits. So we bring a benchmark—we’ve talked about that, right?

We bring a benchmark. But then look at: what’s your growth trajectory? What’s your mandate? And how do you look at the wiring—I’m going to use the word you used earlier—to make sure that the folks you’re hiring or developing are able to pivot, right, quickly, and execute at higher performance.

Because, I mean, the rising tide lifts all boats. That’s the model. And we just don’t see enough of that.

Brent:
You’ve given us and our listeners a lot to think about. This is the kind of episode we usually see a lot of interest in—because many firms are in this boat. Economically, there are tender shoots of consulting starting to rebound. I mean, we went through that surge in demand during COVID, then the retrench from over-hiring.

Now we’re seeing a little bit of a slow. So there’s growth. And maybe they’re a very specialized consultancy doing some really interesting advisory work. Maybe they’re just a bunch of Partners who banded together and wanted to do… whatever the dimension be.

But they’re on this journey. And they’re in 2025. So they’re probably going to make one of these hires—or they’re contemplating it.

And it sounds like—if I were to recap a few key points:

One—the stats are not great. Proceed with caution and be deliberate.

The notion of the Rolodex hire—“come replicate your success”—you know, it doesn’t. And it’s interesting, right? Because we see that in sports, right? How many times have you seen an elite athlete at the peak of their career and ability—they leave their rookie contract, they get the big guaranteed money… and they don’t really quite live up to those expectations.

So it’s common not just in business.

But if you had two or three key anecdotes to leave with a firm that’s going through some growth, contemplating the Partner hire—and needs it for success—what would you have them consider? What would be, you know, what would you have them factor in?

Angela:
So if there are two or three things that you could do if you’re making that investment in a new one or two Partner hires…

Let’s not assume that a seasoned Partner doesn’t need help. Right? Let’s be intentional about the success that they bring—how that might translate into what you’re asking them to do.

I would say: think about the spend. Don’t spend less on your most valued resources.

Right? So, where you can use data to understand the wiring of really important resources—to increase their performance—you should do that.

And I think helping helps. That’s another thing to remember. When someone starts in a new role—or is promoted, frankly, into a Partner role—make sure that you don’t blink. Let’s make sure you’re supporting them. That you have a plan.

It helps when you have a third party because there’s a little bit of psychological safety. People get to take missteps, right?

Because if the bone breaks—don’t let it set in, right?

Like, make sure that you’re supporting people. Because the folks that are doing that aren’t having those stats. You can beat those stats.

The Partner talent in your firm—it’s going to be the most important talent that you’ll have. Not that everybody’s not important, but they’re disproportionately important to a growth strategy.

Make sure that you’re using a new lens on how to make sure they hit the ground running—and they hit their time-to-traction goals. Frankly, the faster they do that, everybody wins.

And I would also say that for clients that invest in performance acceleration at the Partner level, they can put the investment into dozens of Partners—and it pays for itself with one Partner not attriting or failing to launch.

It’s really that simple. Just make sure that you’re really intentional about building a plan to help somebody succeed quickly.

Brent:
That’s great advice. And you know, it’s interesting—when you talk about the types of success they’ve had, don’t assume they haven’t had support. For instance—and I don’t know if you’ve ever come across the Instagram account “Crazy Management Consultants” and the meme…

They started, you know… you’re enjoying a few hours in the—I don’t know—whatever Bonvoy property pool before your flight home, and the Partner just sends—you’ve built this deck and it’s glorious, it’s a masterpiece, and you’re a Senior Manager and, you know, you’ve got an army of young analysts…

And the Partner feedback is: Please fix. Please.

So it’s kind of interesting. But a lot of those people say, “Yes, we’ve helped these Partners. They didn’t transact all this work on their own.”

But that’s really good advice.

This has been a fascinating conversation. I love how specialized you are in your consultancy. We’ve had other guests and some themes around that—like specialization is key. It’s a great niche to focus on. And maximizing the talent of the most important people—the MD and the Partner hire within your consulting firm—is great.

So for our guests—just to recap—Angela is the CEO of Kinavic Leadership Acceleration. You can take a look at their offering, download any insights or research at kinavic.com. You can find that in the show notes.

And again, Angela, this has been great. We appreciate the time you spent with us.

Angela:
Brent, you’ve been great. Loved connecting.